tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post781052647839248..comments2024-03-23T07:33:30.972+00:00Comments on Quodlibeta: The Meaning of LifeJameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01594220073836613367noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-81683987671749699092010-10-23T23:33:43.978+01:002010-10-23T23:33:43.978+01:00well post, i was looking the same for my purpose i...well post, i was looking the same for my purpose in life essay help.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mastersdissertation.co.uk/essays/Purpose_in_Life_Essay.htm" rel="nofollow">Write Purpose in Life Essay</a>Purpose in life essayhttp://www.mastersdissertation.co.uk/essays/Purpose_in_Life_Essay.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-65893594616668842792009-09-30T21:35:21.439+01:002009-09-30T21:35:21.439+01:00"I really don't see this discussion going..."<i>I really don't see this discussion going anywhere.</i>" - 1st unouroboros quote :P<br /><br />Thanks guys. Sorry for the web-clogging.unouroboroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956343799260775229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-47124054525032426812009-09-30T21:14:35.997+01:002009-09-30T21:14:35.997+01:00OK people, that's enough. Although Tim can lo...OK people, that's enough. Although Tim can look after himself, I'm not sure this discussion will go any further. If you want to take it elsewhere be my guest.<br /><br />And for what it's worth, I agree with Al.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01594220073836613367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-83134592030278952042009-09-30T21:08:02.344+01:002009-09-30T21:08:02.344+01:00The absurdity of this discussion reminds me of why...The absurdity of this discussion reminds me of why I do not discuss much anymore on the web.Al Moritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17422697770654047870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-22188617686308444052009-09-30T20:27:50.098+01:002009-09-30T20:27:50.098+01:00I think he's successfully refuted the argument...<i>I think he's successfully refuted the argument that all thinking atheists must end up by despairing.</i><br /><br />You do realize this refuted argument isn't what's being argued for, correct?unouroboroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956343799260775229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-7752850629829305272009-09-30T20:24:18.667+01:002009-09-30T20:24:18.667+01:00"A world devoid of intrinsic meaning is... a ..."A world devoid of intrinsic meaning is... a world devoid of intrinsic meaning, and all that entails." <br />Well said anonymous. It's merely logic people. <br /><br /><i>Wikipedia: nihilism: "life is without meaning"</i><br /><i>Tim: Craig says life is "absurd" and without any meaning at all (without intrinsic meaning).</i><br /><br />The absurdity is that you live as though your life was sufficiently meaningful - when, as countless here have pointed out, that's not good enough to crawl out of the hole of meaninglessness.<br /><br />Live how you please. Believe what you want. Feel significant. Enjoy true extrinsic meaning. Look at yourself in the mirror every morning and keep repeating to yourself: "Tim! Timmy-baby! Timrod. Timmy O'Drool. You're something special man. Keep it up". No one has argued that you believe you are a nihilist. You've admitted life is ultimately meaningless. You've admitted your existence is equivalent to never having existed. You are a nihilist. You are living an absurdly contradictory puppet show where you believe extrinsic meaning is as good as intrinsic meaning. Your assertions do not change the logic of the situation. <br /><br />Here's a summary:<br />- Tim says Craig says: "without intrinsic meaning, life has no meaning <b>at all</b>"<br />- Tim says: "Uh, Craigy, <i>extrinsic</i> meaning = some kind of meaning. Q.E.D."<br />- Tim says: "Ultimately, everything is meaningless"<br />- Tim says: "Some kinds of meaning are ultimately meaningless". <br />- Tim doesn't realize he's a walking contradiction who's poorly playing a semantic game. <br />- Tim doesn't even realize that as an intrinsic nihilist, he's wasting his and everybody's time.<br /><br /><i>How many more times do you want to go over this?</i><br />As many times as it takes for you to realize what's being argued.unouroboroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956343799260775229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-24984944374280429742009-09-30T19:21:42.775+01:002009-09-30T19:21:42.775+01:00Look. The question isn't whether someone who r...Look. The question isn't whether someone who rejects intrinsic meaning is going to despair. Craig admitted people who reject intrinsic meaning can be happy, and the fact that people who reject all intrinsic meaning to life and the universe can many times be happy was *never under dispute here*. You guys are fatally confusing a feeling of happiness with 'life having [real] meaning', or worse, that feeling of happiness with nihilism.<br /><br />Let me repeat: That Tim can scream "Damnit you people I am happy even though I reject intrinsic meaning!" doesn't mean squat. It does not prove his worldview is not nihilistic (He rejects intrinsic meaning, the only 'meaning' that exists is whatever he makes up - what more is there to say?), it does not prove his worldview has 'real meaning' (Again, no one denied that nihilists can declare by personal fiat that 'this has meaning for me!' - In fact, that was the freaking point). Not only are his personal feelings beside the point (because, one more time: No one has argued all nihilists/atheists must be miserable. In fact, the opposite has been claimed), but they can't be proven anyway. The fact that Tim screams about how happy he is while clearly coming across as pretty damn angry, frustrated, and hypocritical doesn't make him happy, anymore than a chronically depressed person yelling "I am not depressed!" disproves their depression.<br /><br />It's not just that Tim's worldview is egotistical (How can it be anything else, when he rejects intrinsic meaning and is passionately arguing for a single kind of meaning that "really matters" being the kind he personally makes up?), it's that it's - wait for it - a hilariously sad distraction. He wants to pretend that "The world is devoid of any ultimate purpose, any intrinsic meaning, and any ultimate morality. All has taken place by sheer mechanical accident without rhyme or reason. All are doomed." isn't really a bad thing. He talks about how wanting a world like that is egotistical, makes a person into a wannabe superman, etc. Very, very fox and grapes.<br /><br />None of us, I think, want to smack Tim around via psychoanalysis. We'd rather talk about the real and obvious results and status of a world without intrinsic value. But that's the last thing Tim can talk about, because the facts on the ground are too clearly a nihilistic shipwreck. So he has to talk about himself, thus leading into this inane 'I'm really happy and that's all I need to prove I'm not a nihilist!' schtick.<br /><br />A world devoid of intrinsic meaning is... a world devoid of intrinsic meaning, and all that entails. It isn't just theists who are pointing out what that leads to, you know. And all the hall of mirrors in the world won't make the ultimate repercussions anything but what they are. Yes, you can distract yourself from this. Yes, you can experience this raw emotion called happiness. You can do a lot of things, so long as you cope with (read: be inconsistent, be ignorant, be self-deceptive, be whatever needed) that other entailed worldview. You can even claim to reject intrinsic meaning yet internally accept it! You just can't change the facts about what a world devoid of it entails.<br /><br />Sorry. It's a nasty picture of life and meaning, but hey, who promised life was otherwise? (Well, theists and other non-naturalists, but alas...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-1560573223777666672009-09-30T14:09:09.944+01:002009-09-30T14:09:09.944+01:00anonymousagnostic said...
Maybe I've got this ...<i>anonymousagnostic said...<br />Maybe I've got this all wrong but I don't think Tim's arguing that atheism can't result in nihilism (in the sense of a lack of any meaning to life or any moral values), merely that in the vast majority of cases it doen't have this effect. I wouldn't be surprised if there were lots of religious people who despair far more than many atheists do.<br /><br />I don't think it's fair to call him egoistic because of his talking about subjective values. In the context of this argument (extrinsic vs. intrinsic meaning) he's obviously going to have to talk about himself a lot, but judging by his own description of how he lives and what's important to him I certainly don't get the impression that he's any more egoistic than anyone else posting here. I think he's successfully refuted the argument that all thinking atheists must end up by despairing.<br /><br />I say this as an agnostic (or weak atheist by Tim's definition) with theist sympathies.</i><br /><br /><br />Well said.Al Moritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17422697770654047870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-72748417472258484222009-09-30T13:19:53.915+01:002009-09-30T13:19:53.915+01:00Maybe I've got this all wrong but I don't ...Maybe I've got this all wrong but I don't think Tim's arguing that atheism can't result in nihilism (in the sense of a lack of any meaning to life or any moral values), merely that in the vast majority of cases it doen't have this effect. I wouldn't be surprised if there were lots of religious people who despair far more than many atheists do.<br /><br />I don't think it's fair to call him egoistic because of his talking about subjective values. In the context of this argument (extrinsic vs. intrinsic meaning) he's obviously going to have to talk about himself a lot, but judging by his own description of how he lives and what's important to him I certainly don't get the impression that he's any more egoistic than anyone else posting here. I think he's successfully refuted the argument that all thinking atheists must end up by despairing. <br />I say this as an agnostic (or weak atheist by Tim's definition) with theist sympathies.anonymousagnosticnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-71763741574678499912009-09-30T12:05:39.147+01:002009-09-30T12:05:39.147+01:00Subjective meaning is not valid. The only valid me...<i>Subjective meaning is not valid. The only valid meaning is objective meaning, so if you don't have it, you have to fall into nihilism.<br /><br />A far-fetched argument that goes nowhere, indeed, as Tim pointed out.<br /><br />Can you fellow theists please finally stop it?</i><br /><br />As every person makes his own meaning, people are allowed to do whatever they want to do, which logically leads back to nihilism. Someone can say, "My meaning is to help people around me." Other can say, "My meaning is to murder the world." The third one goes, "My meaning is to kill anyone whose meaning is to help people around him." No limits and no boundaries, ergo nihilism. <br /><br />Not to mention, Tim's life philosophy is a philosophy of egoism as it always revolves around HIM, HIM, and HIM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-89461108188993075482009-09-30T11:33:10.356+01:002009-09-30T11:33:10.356+01:00Subjective meaning is not valid. The only valid me...Subjective meaning is not valid. The only valid meaning is objective meaning, so if you don't have it, you have to fall into nihilism.<br /><br />A far-fetched argument that goes nowhere, indeed, as Tim pointed out.<br /><br />Can you fellow theists please finally stop it?Al Moritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17422697770654047870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-41597300170656343852009-09-30T06:59:33.830+01:002009-09-30T06:59:33.830+01:00I’m beginning to think this whole exercise is inte...I’m beginning to think this whole exercise is intended to deliberately drive me to nihilism …<br /><br /><i>Me: "You feel certain that FOR YOU extrinsic meaning has the same level of significance as intrinsic ones...<br /><br />You: "Yes. Blah Blah Blah. I don't understand what the difference means."</i><br /><br />I <i>does</i> have the same kind of significance in that it is sufficient to give my life meaning etc, just as an instrinsic meaning does. But it isn’t identical in other ways – eg it’s not objective, cosmic, eternal, existent independent of me and my feelings etc.<br /><br /><i>From Wikipedia: " Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."<br /><br />From Tim: "Sure, Life is without meaning, purpose or intrinsic value, but I'm knowingly not a nihilist because, gosh darn-it, I have sensations of significance". <br /><br />Please Tim, heed the pleas of your fellow English speakers and read a dictionary.</i><br /><br />Jesus Christ on a stick. Craig’s argument isn’t based on a dictionary definition of “nihilism” FFS. It’s based on his assertion that without intrinsic meaning life is “absurd” and without <b>any meaning at all</b>. But this ignores extrinsic meanings, which are quite sufficient. So, due to this hole in his argument, it fails.<br /><br />How many more times do you want to go over this?Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-16130419259887277242009-09-30T06:27:59.219+01:002009-09-30T06:27:59.219+01:00Utter gibberish
Hehehe.
Me: "You feel certa...<i>Utter gibberish</i><br /><br />Hehehe.<br /><br />Me: "<i>You feel certain that FOR YOU extrinsic meaning <b>has the same level of significance</b> as intrinsic ones...</i><br />You: "Yes. Blah Blah Blah. I don't understand what the difference means."<br /><br />From Wikipedia: " Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."<br /><br />From Tim: "Sure, Life is without meaning, purpose or intrinsic value, but I'm knowingly not a nihilist because, gosh darn-it, I have sensations of significance". <br /><br />Please Tim, heed the pleas of your fellow English speakers and read a dictionary.unouroboroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956343799260775229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-88726824550999526602009-09-30T05:28:01.970+01:002009-09-30T05:28:01.970+01:00Just when we though he’d finally realised he shoul...Just when we though he’d finally realised he should give up …<br /><br /><i><b>Surely you can see how these extrinsic meanings can be as equally significant as your intrinsic ones without being the same in every particular? Even if you can’t, what basis do you have for telling me I’m simply mistaken when I assure you that they DO have that level of significance for me?</b><br /><br />This is where you are deluded. <br />You feel certain that FOR YOU extrinsic meaning has the same level of significance as intrinsic ones...</i><br /><br />Yes. Which is where the whole “debate” about whether they are significant for me should end. After all, who the hell else can decide what is significant for ME in MY life except ME? Answer – Nobody.<br /><br /><i>only you've agreed some particulars are different</i><br /><br />Yes. They are not objective, cosmic or intrinsic and so don’t have the particulars of those kinds of meanings. They aren’t eternal, for example. They don’t exist independently of me and my feelings.<br /><br /><i>and these differences, Tim, are that certainty and feeling has nothing to do with what is really significant.</i><br /><br />Utter gibberish. Since it’s MY life and the question is about what I feel is significant to ME, then MY certainty and MY feelings are actually ALL THAT MATTERS.<br />What the hell else could possibly be relevant to what is important to ME?!<br /><br /><i>Open your eyes man! Craig is not at all claiming that atheists will claim to be, or feel like, or see the inevitable conclusion of their views and become - nihilists.</i><br /><br />Again you fail to grasp the point. Craig sets up a false dichotomy – either you believe in God or you end up wallowing (knowingly or not) in nihilism. But the example of atheists like me shows this is false, because we embrace the extrinsic meanings in life – the element that Craig’s dichotomy conveniently ignores.<br />So atheism doesn’t end up with a meaningless life at all and Craig’s argument <i>fails</i>.<br /><br />Now please heed the pleas of your fellow theists and give up before you embarass them any further. Seriously.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-3907778196245735092009-09-30T03:44:21.010+01:002009-09-30T03:44:21.010+01:00Surely you can see how these extrinsic meanings ca...<i>Surely you can see how these extrinsic meanings can be as equally significant as your intrinsic ones without being the same in every particular? Even if you can’t, what basis do you have for telling me I’m simply mistaken when I assure you that they DO have that level of significance for me?</i><br /><br />This is where you are deluded. <br />You <i>feel certain</i> that FOR YOU extrinsic meaning has the same level of significance as intrinsic ones... only you've agreed <i>some particulars</i> are different, and these differences, Tim, are that certainty and feeling has nothing to do with what is really significant. You can't grasp the meaning of that sentence. Fine. <br /><br /><i>The point is that Craig claims atheism leads inevitably to nihilism because it implies a universe without intrinsic meaning. I'm simply pointing to evidence that Craig is wrong: ie atheists who are not nihilists. Why aren't they nihilists? Because extrinsic meanings are sufficient to make the universe meaningful. Therefore Craig's premise is wrong, as evidenced by the existence of non-nihilistic, extrinsic value-accepting, happy atheists.</i><br /><br />Open your eyes man! Craig is not at all claiming that atheists will claim to be, or feel like, or see the inevitable conclusion of their views and become - nihilists. The funny thing is, you've agreed that nihilism is true... ultimately, and that's Craig's point. You've <i>agreed</i> with that! That's what nihilism <i>is</i>: ultimate meaninglessness.unouroboroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956343799260775229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-36899863761475038862009-09-29T12:27:37.325+01:002009-09-29T12:27:37.325+01:00Does anyone else find some amusement in some guy f...<i>Does anyone else find some amusement in some guy frantically, angrily trying to convince everyone else that the only person who determines the values in his life is himself?<br /><br />Methinks he doth protest too much.</i><br /><br />No, on the contrary, on this topic I find my fellow theists hilarious in their persistence on fake arguments. What is wrong with purely subjectuve meaning? Sure we theists have some of that too in our lives, besides the objective meaning that we derive from our faith position. <br /><br />Tim is the one who makes sense here. <br /><br />And I would be very careful about making the connection between meaning and morality. Yes, a connection is there, but the discussion here really takes on exaggerated dimensions.Al Moritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17422697770654047870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-65082005583483012742009-09-29T11:17:45.101+01:002009-09-29T11:17:45.101+01:00Matko:
No, dear. You're using numbers to prov...<i>Matko:<br /><br />No, dear. You're using numbers to prove your position is true.</i><br /><br />Twaddle. The point is that Craig claims atheism leads inevitably to nihilism because it implies a universe without intrinsic meaning. I'm simply pointing to <b>evidence</b> that Craig is <b>wrong</b>: ie atheists who are not nihilists. Why aren't they nihilists? Because extrinsic meanings are sufficient to make the universe meaningful. Therefore Craig's premise is <b>wrong</b>, as evidenced by the existence of non-nihilistic, extrinsic value-accepting, happy atheists.<br /><br />Got it now, "dear"?<br /><br /><i>But the fact is, you have to prove that a life lead by subjective, false meanings is a life worth living.</i><br /><br />So now for such a life to be worth living for ME I can't simply assure you that it is, I now have to make you accept that it is as well? Absurdity piled on absurdity!<br /><br />Get it through your head - the only person who can decide what makes MY life worth living is <b>ME</b>. Your opinion on the matter is totally and complete irrelevant - it's MY life and the only person who can determine if these subjective, extrinsic things make it worth living is ME.<br /><br /><i>Nobody cares what's significant for YOU.</i><br /><br />This is absolutely insane. It's MY life. MINE. Got it? So the ONLY person who's opinion on what is significant for ME in MY life is ME. To pretend anyone else's opinion on the matter is in any way relevant is completely nuts.<br /><br /><i>What everybody cares is to be convinced that your position is reasonable for EVERYBODY.</i><br /><br />What utter hooting nonsense. One more time: It's MY life. MINE. Got it? So the ONLY person who's opinion on what is significant for ME in MY life is ME.<br /><br />Please jackhammer this through your skull.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-48281091901511032452009-09-29T10:43:21.946+01:002009-09-29T10:43:21.946+01:00Does anyone else find some amusement in some guy f...Does anyone else find some amusement in some guy frantically, angrily trying to convince everyone else that the only person who determines the values in his life is himself?<br /><br />Methinks he doth protest too much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-64895888340601217182009-09-29T10:36:07.896+01:002009-09-29T10:36:07.896+01:00That you don’t know what an Argumentum ad Populum ...<i>That you don’t know what an Argumentum ad Populum is.<br /><br />Craig claims atheism inevitably leads to nihilism because it implies a universe without any ultimate meaning. But ask on any atheist forum if the atheists there feel their lives are meaningless because it lacks any ultimate meaning and you’ll get a storm of replies like mine: “My life has plenty of meaning in it thanks – the meanings that I myself give it.” For this to be analogous to your evolution argument, the atheists would not only have to believe this, but also be wrong about it. But the only people who can say what is significant in their lives and what gives them (extrinsic) meaning are the individuals themselves.</i><br /><br />No, dear. You're using numbers to prove your position is true. But the fact is, you have to prove that a life lead by subjective, false meanings is a life worth living. Till now, you're just shouting.<br /><br /><i>So no, it’s not an Argumentum ad Populum - all those atheists who feel they have meaningful lives because of those extrinsic meanings show that Craig is dead wrong – you CAN have meaning in life even if you have no intrinsic meaning in your world view.</i><br /><br />You appealing to him again. And now you're even question begging.<br /><br /><i>I’m only repeating myself because you don’t seem to be listening. One more time: . I DON’T need objective meanings at all. Subjective ones do just fine. If subjective ones aren’t significant for YOU then that’s your business. But they are perfectly significant enough for ME and since it’s MY life you can’t tell me they aren’t. I’M the only arbiter of what is significant for ME in MY life.</i><br /><br />Nobody cares what's significant for YOU. What everybody cares is to be convinced that your position is reasonable for EVERYBODY. If you fail to provide that, your position is deemed dismissible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-8008026409208839982009-09-29T10:20:30.594+01:002009-09-29T10:20:30.594+01:00"And I can't see how the extrinsic meanin..."And I can't see how the extrinsic meanings in our lives would be 'steadily shrinking'".<br /><br />It was a sort of reference to our steadily ebbing mortality. <br /><br />"One of the things that struck me when I realised I no longer had a belief in God was how little changed."<br /><br />Yup. It makes very little practical difference; I say that having been an atheist for about 26 years. My moral and ethical assumptions have not really changed to a great degree. This is because we don't need a metaphysical belief system to recognise what is right and wrong (and a good thing too!). And of course, you don't need me to tell you that certain belief systems are actually corrosive to morality; witness the Protestant German in the 1940s who believed that God had ordained the Aryan race to become masters of the planet.<br /><br />Where I think there is an issue is where our reason to pursue our self interest conflicts with our capacity to take an impartial point of view (the point of view of the universe) from which we give equal weight to all the beings in the universe. The two can't always be reconciled and they often conflict. There needs to be a compelling justification for doing what is right when it is demanding and goes against my happiness and self interest.Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11936974517695558399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-39400909336363918592009-09-29T08:25:26.407+01:002009-09-29T08:25:26.407+01:00Humphrey:
I guess the problem I have is that this...<i>Humphrey:<br /><br />I guess the problem I have is that this falls into the trap of being an 'argument from consequences'.</i><br /><br />Yes, it has that weakness as well. That's on top of the one I'm highlighting here - the consequence that Craig claims is inevitable simply <b>isn't</b>.<br /><br /><i>Plus, if we were convinced that there was no higher purpose then we would just have to make do as best we could and adopt a kind of 'heroic atheism' In which we preserve a steadily shrinking island of extrinsic meaning.</i><br /><br />Umm, sort of. Though I certainly wouldn't express it like that. If you accept that extrinsic meanings are all there are, then you aren't "making do" (which implies that this is some kind of sad but inevitable second-rate option). And I can't see how the extrinsic meanings in our lives would be "steadily shrinking".<br /><br />One of the things that struck me when I realised I no longer had a belief in God was how little changed. You'd think if belief in God makes such an enormous difference, my life would have been transformed, or that I would have become a hedonist, a amoral monster or a despairing nihilist. But nothing much changed at all. My morality had a slightly different basis and I accepted the extrinsic meanings in my life as all there is, but the transition was a total non-event.<br /><br />Make of that what you will .. <br /><br /><i>Whoever came up with the example of Joseph Stalin deciding to make a 3 Dimensional model train set out of Tim's family's entrails in a back shed needs to drink less coffee.</i><br /><br />You can say that again. I thought I'd seen some kooky responses to my posts on the Dawkins forum, but that one was surreal.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-1025742470281587492009-09-29T08:18:54.175+01:002009-09-29T08:18:54.175+01:00Matko:
No matter how desperately some here try to ...<i> Matko:<br /><b>No matter how desperately some here try to cling to this theist myth that atheism leads to nihilism and despair, the evidence of millions of happy, non-nihilistic atheist shows this to be garbage.</b><br /><br />Argumentum ad Populum <br /><br />Millions of Americans not believing in evolution shows evolution is garbage. What did I just prove?</i><br /><br />That you don’t know what an <i>Argumentum ad Populum</i> is. <br /><br />Craig claims atheism inevitably leads to nihilism because it implies a universe without any ultimate meaning. But ask on any atheist forum if the atheists there feel their lives are meaningless because it lacks any ultimate meaning and you’ll get a storm of replies like mine: “My life has plenty of meaning in it thanks – the meanings that <b>I myself</b> give it.” For this to be analogous to your evolution argument, the atheists would not only have to believe this, but also be <i>wrong</i> about it. But the only people who can say what is significant in their lives and what gives them (extrinsic) meaning are the individuals themselves.<br /><br />So you’re back to the the problem that YOU can’t determine what they should or shouldn’t or shouldn’t find meaningful – only THEY can do that. So no, it’s not an <i>Argumentum ad Populum</i> - all those atheists who feel they have meaningful lives because of those extrinsic meanings show that Craig is dead wrong – you CAN have meaning in life even if you have no intrinsic meaning in your world view. It’s just that that meaning is based on these extrinsic meanings that are more than up to the task.<br /><br />Which is all I’ve been trying to tell you for about a dozen posts now. When will you begin to <i>listen</i>?<br /><br /><i>The word you are searching is "objective". You need objective meaning, not cosmic or ultimate.</i><br /><br />Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I <b>DON’T</b> need objective meanings at all. Subjective ones do just fine. <br /><br /><i>Have you ready the relevant portion of his book?</i><br /><br />How could I have quoted from it in one of my first posts in this discussion if I hadn’t?<br /><br /><i><b>Insisting it's true won't help you.</b><br /><br />You're the one who does this ad nauseam.</i><br /><br />I’m only repeating myself because you don’t seem to be listening. One more time: . I <b>DON’T</b> need objective meanings at all. Subjective ones do just fine. If subjective ones aren’t significant for YOU then that’s your business. But they are perfectly significant enough for ME and since it’s MY life you can’t tell me they aren’t. I’M the only arbiter of what is significant for ME in MY life.<br /><br />Please try to crowbar this into your brain before one of us dies of old age.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-35041638610936490822009-09-29T07:20:39.939+01:002009-09-29T07:20:39.939+01:00I guess the problem I have is that this falls into...I guess the problem I have is that this falls into the trap of being an 'argument from consequences'. Plus, if we were convinced that there was no higher purpose then we would just have to make do as best we could and adopt a kind of 'heroic atheism' In which we preserve a steadily shrinking island of extrinsic meaning. <br /><br />Whoever came up with the example of Joseph Stalin deciding to make a 3 Dimensional model train set out of Tim's family's entrails in a back shed needs to drink less coffee.Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11936974517695558399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-49806585525396120002009-09-29T07:07:10.163+01:002009-09-29T07:07:10.163+01:00No matter how desperately some here try to cling t...<i>No matter how desperately some here try to cling to this theist myth that atheism leads to nihilism and despair, the evidence of millions of happy, non-nihilistic atheist shows this to be garbage.</i><br /><br />Argumentum ad Populum <br /><br />Millions of Americans not believing in evolution shows evolution is garbage. What did I just prove?<br /><br /><i>You DON'T need intrinsic, cosmic, ultimate meanings to make your life full of meaning, purpose and significance - extrinsic, subjective, personal meanings do the trick perfectly well.</i><br /><br />The word you are searching is "objective". You need objective meaning, not cosmic or ultimate.<br /><br />And "do the trick" is the perfect description. It's only a trick. And no one should base his life or lead it on tricks.<br /><br /><i>So Craig's argument is based on a falsehood.</i><br /><br />Have you ready the relevant portion of his book?<br /><br /><i>Insisting it's true won't help you.</i> <br /><br />You're the one who does this ad nauseam.<br /><br /><i>It clearly isn't.</i><br /><br />Saying it three times doesn't make it right. <br /><br /><i>So his argument fails.</i><br /><br />Which you haven't studied, as it seems on a first glance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-44726842724079375542009-09-29T04:44:08.814+01:002009-09-29T04:44:08.814+01:00Anon:
By the way, thanks all for the concerted eff...<i>Anon:<br />By the way, thanks all for the concerted efforts to try and get Tim to understand why he's on the ropes here.</i><br /><br />There are few things more pathetic than people who indulge in this weak internet debater's tactic of repeatedly declaring victory and then scurrying away again. If you don’t have anything to actually contribute then please put a sock in it and leave the discussion to those who are prepared to make an effort.Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.com