tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post116609412328618540..comments2024-03-23T07:33:30.972+00:00Comments on Quodlibeta: A.C. Grayling attacks Terry EagletonJameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01594220073836613367noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-1557844652631672032010-10-06T11:07:22.544+01:002010-10-06T11:07:22.544+01:00Not that I'm an expert either, but in what sen...Not that I'm an expert either, but in what sense do, say, the Kalam and the fine tuning arguments assume God's existence as a premise? I've never seen God's existence as a premise to any of these arguments, so clearly either I or you have misunderstood these arguments completely.Henriknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-57801594619549873242010-10-04T05:04:02.995+01:002010-10-04T05:04:02.995+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Daniel Scheallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14398750017377767417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-29118579954744392942010-10-04T05:03:16.046+01:002010-10-04T05:03:16.046+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Daniel Scheallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14398750017377767417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-301058026910301192010-10-04T05:02:16.943+01:002010-10-04T05:02:16.943+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Daniel Scheallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14398750017377767417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5074683.post-69458885932652638792010-10-04T05:00:35.073+01:002010-10-04T05:00:35.073+01:00Ha!
Now here is a blast from the past!
Stumbled ...Ha!<br /><br />Now <em>here</em> is a blast from the past!<br /><br />Stumbled on this during random Googling - I was trying to find any kind of response from A C Grayling on the recent, somewhat one-sided storm-in-a-teacup between <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-shook-phd/for-atheists-and-believer_b_715546.html" rel="nofollow">John Shook</a> and <a href="http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/cfi-declares-war-on-atheists" rel="nofollow">Jerry Coyne</a>. There might be a blog post for you guys on that topic.<br /><br />Back to the topic of this thread, however: Theology.<br /><br />I'm (clearly) no expert. But occasionally a believer will direct me to a theologian or a theological argument. Kalaam Cosmological, Ontological, Fine-tuning, and (urgh) Pascal's Wager seem to be the most commonly recurring themes. <br /><br />Whenever I pick up a work of theology I start out feeling a mix of curiosity, trepidation (<em>this</em> might be the one to prove me wrong, oh no!) and an uncertain amount of intellectual bloodlust.<br /><br />Whenever I put down a work of theology, I'm usually left with a mix of frustration at having wasted my time, along with a certain amount of smug schadenfreude.<br /><br />Each piece of theology I've read has had multiple flaws; but there is one flaw in particular that I've found to be common to all of them.<br /><br />They have all assumed God's existence as a premise. Oftentimes as a hidden premise, particularly in the cases of arguments from analogy. But all the same, the assumption is there.<br /><br />Well... To be fair, I suppose that last statement isn't <em>entirely</em> true. Pascal's Wager doesn't contain that particular fallacy of assumption. But there are <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU" rel="nofollow">plenty of reasons for dismissing the Wager anyway</a> - <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXSjzCf1waA" rel="nofollow">it's not the most inspiring of exceptions</a>.<br /><br />Any theological argument that relies on this fallacy can only become persuasive <em>after</em> someone is a believer. Such arguments are not themselves good reasons to believe.<br /><br />Again: I'm hardly an expert on theology, far from it. I'm novice-armchair level at best. I don't deny the existence of <em>good</em> theological arguments that don't commit this fallacy. I just don't know what they are.<br /><br />That said - I've often asked <em>believers</em> to give me an example of some theology that doesn't fall prey to a fallacy of assumption in this way. Mostly they give me a blank look, being even less familiar with theology than I am.<br /><br />The ones that do give me a response usually give the same old dusty arguments I've come across time and time again. They might be polished up in academese, but the shape of the furniture doesn't change just because you drape an attractive sheet over it.<br /><br />If a theological argument assumes God's existence as a premise, then I don't need to engage with it to dismiss it for being logically unsound as an argument that attempts to conclude with God's existence.<br /><br />If there are any theological works that don't commit these fallacies of assumption, where should I look? Again: I don't deny that such an argument might exist. It's just that no believer has ever offered me one yet, and I've been asking for a while now.<br /><br />Also: If a believer doesn't require an understanding of advanced theology to justify their belief, then why must atheists require a similar understanding to justify their non-belief?<br /><br />Very interested to hear any responses.Daniel Scheallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14398750017377767417noreply@blogger.com